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Full Name	Bert Kramer
AKA Full Name
People ID	686470
Title
First Name	Bert
AKA First Name
Nickname
Middle Name
AKA Middle
Patronymic/Matronymic
Priorsurnames
Surname	Kramer
AKA Surname
Father's Surname
Mother's Surname
Suffix
Gender	Male
Full Birth Date If Known	1934-10-10
Birth Year	1934
Birth Month	10
Birth Day	10
Full Death Date If Known	2001-06-20
Death Year	2001
Death Month	6
Death Day	20

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Relationship	Related To	Relative's People ID	Relative's Birth Year	Relative's Death Year	Other Date (typically Marriage Date)

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Rank If Known Or Highest Or Final Rank	Branch of Service	Beginning Date if Known	End Date if Known

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Interment, Inurnment or Memorialization Information


Cemetery	Not Known
Address
City/Town	N/A
County/District	N/A
State/Province	N/A
Postal/Zip Code
Country/Principality	N/A





Organization
Property Type
Has Marker
No Marker
Is Cenotaph
GPS/LatLong Coordinates
End of Interment Record	If there are additional interments or cenotaphs for this person they will appear below

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Biographical or other information about the person

https://mills-sfv.com/Genealogy/GLS/People/Text/686470.txt

I was doing an audit of the Find A Grave famous memorials in Forest Lawn Glendale and found this guy. There is a plot location so normally it would be a slam dunk, if this Bert Kramer wasn't in my database I could add him with the plot information.

Wrong! Someone was being lazy and found a different Bert Kramer and used his plot location. The Bert Kramer who is actually buried there died in 1933 -- here's a link to his record, which has a photo posted.

To add insult to injury (or perhaps confusion to more confusion) there is a photo on Find A Grave on the memorial for this Bert Kramer (the one who died in 2001) which purports to show the grave is unmarked, and is next to the grave of Daisy Kennedy.. What's interesting about Daisy Kennedy is that she is not in Graceland, she's in Liberty, Lot 488.

This would be plausible, except that a query of the surrounding plot locations doesn't show anyone who could be Bert or any spaces which don't have a person already in them, which could be taken up by the aforementioned Bert Kramer.

I have put in a message to the find a grave contributor who posted the photo (which was done in 2016) asking him if he has more information about the plot location he took the photo off. But here's my theory as to what he did, since I have spent way too much time in Forest Lawn.

I think the guy who took the photo was looking for Lot 492 of Graceland. The top part of Graceland runs into the Liberty section of Forest Lawn, and I don't recall there being any kind of demarcation or fence between them. I suspect the guy who posted the photo stumbled from Graceland into Liberty, found a disc that said 488 (which is where Daisy Kennedy is) and thought he was in Graceland, not Liberty, took the photo, and posted it on Find A Grave.

The disc may have said 488 and 492 together on one side, and the find a grave contributor assumed he was looking at grave 1 of Lot 492 next to grave 4 of Lot 488. Except that if he was in Liberty and thought he was in Graceland, he assumed his no marker photo was for a completely different person (and I can't even tell at this point exactly what lot and space it is that is next to Daisy Kennedy, so there may be no marker because there's simply no one buried there).

I don't fault the find a grave contributor for this mistake, if that was what happened. Forest Lawn Glendale is huge and it is not easy to find an individual plot location. It's easier if you have the right tools, but most people don't. I do fault whoever was lazy enough to assume that a Bert or Albert Kramer who was in Forest Lawn with no date in their grave locator must therefore be the same Bert Kramer who died in 2001, without verifying that information.

The next time I get over to the Liberty section of Forest Lawn I will find Daisy Kennedy's marker and see who is actually to the right side of her marker. I don't know that this will tell us anything about the ulimate disposition of Bert Kramer, but it may confirm that he isn't at that location.


Forest Lawn Glendale famous people that find a grave thinks are buried there who aren't
Small notes (field in database 50 characters max)
Family Search ID
Find A Grave 1	93952993
Famous per Find A Grave	Yes
Famous per Consensus	Yes
Find A Grave 2
Find A Grave 3
BillionGraves Record ID
Other websites
Record Entry Date	2020-12-08 13:30:53
Record Last Edit Date	2020-12-08 13:34:56

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